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golden threads
david cohen on gays in the military
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993
From: Robin Mitchell
Subject: Cohen on Gays in the NYT

Any thoughts out there on David Cohens' piece on gays in the Greek military on the op-ed page of today's New York Times? It struck me that he well argued the point that has probably occured to many classicists: that homosexuality in itself does not deter military efficacy. I also think Cohen's piece is a prime example of the kind of public service classicists can perform, especially ones at the more elite institutions which have more clout with the media.

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993
From: Tony Keen
Subject: Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT

But, but, but... actual physically consumated homosexual relations in the Greek world are between older men and young adolescent boys. Once said boys get to the age of military service, they are too old to be the objects of sexual advances from older men (and anyone who did make such advances would be considered very odd). What survives are the emotional bonds forged during the previous pederasty, which were considered beneficial to military cohesion, especially in the Spartan army. Therefore the sort of homsexuality that Greek soldiers engaged in and that engaged in by modern soldiers are not really comparable. (Cohen may well have made this point; we don't get the NYT over here.)

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993
From: Dale Grote
Subject: Cohen's NYT Op-ed

Robin Mitchell asks for reactions to David Cohen's op-ed piece in the NYT (March 31), which an editor "cleverly" entitled "Notes on a Grecian Yearn [:-(]: Pederasty in Thebes and Sparta". I'm afraid my reaction wasn't as enthusiastic; it seemed to me a string of silly irrelevancies. In the first place, he indiscriminately mixed philosophy and history -- a crime I warn my undergraduates against -- and secondly, the issue of gays in the military isn't really answerable by appeal to historical precedent. I mean, the practice of Greek homosexuality and the constitution of the military were different enough from the practice of late 20 century homosexuality in the United States and American military establishments to render the use of historical parallels rather far fetched. I thought Cohen's piece was quaint, but hardly enlightening. As a matter of fact, upon rereading the article, I see that Cohen himself is careful to avoid tying his historical survey to what the United States is now considering. (In other words, he appears tacitly to have conceded that he has nothing tangible to offer.) I'm afraid I can't agree with Robin that this is an example of how Classicists can shed light on contemporary social issues. Bien au contraire

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993
From: "C.G. BROWN"
Subject: Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT

One of my colleagues has a cartoon (from the *New Yorker*, I believe) on her door, in which someone is remarking at a middle class gathering: "Of course, the Trojan War would have gone differently, if the Greeks had kept gays out of the military" (these may not be the exact words).

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993
From: "C.G. BROWN"
Subject: Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT

Tony Keen cast some doubt on the role of active homosexuality in Greek military life. But it seems to me that Plato in the *Symposium* (no precise ref.-- the text is at the office) speaks of the *hieros lochos* at Thebes (I think) as comprising both *erastai* and *eromenoi*. It may be, however, that this group was exceptional in this regard (that's certainly how it is treated in Plato). Like TK, I haven't seen Cohen in the NYT.

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1993
From: Tony Keen
Subject: Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT

Almost certainly exceptional, I would say. Everything I've ever learnt about homosexuality in Athens and Sparta leads me to the conclusion that homosexual relationships between adult men didn't happen (or at least were very, very rare...). It's a difference in attitude towards sex, isn't it? As my ex-supervisor puts it, in the Greek world sex is something done by a social superior to a social inferior, not an act of equal participation as it is in the modern world.

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1993
From: Bowe
Subject: Gays & Symposium

With regard to the references made in the Symposium to homosexuals in the army, it seems that several things are going on. 1) Phaedrus wishes that an army could be had such that lovers and the beloved fight side by side. As to the beloved being too old to be of age for military service, this does not seem quite impossible, since Pheadrus indicates that this was not the interpretation he gives to the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus: "(the notion that Patroclus was the beloved one is a foolish error into which Aeschylus has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the two... and he was much younger, as Homer informs us, and he has no beard)." 2) This is remonstrated by Pausanius, who seems to think it appropriate that the vulgar Aphrodite's love be forbidden, since it "brings nothing but wantonness". Rather, lovers inspired by the higher Aphrodite, (as someone alluded to earlier on this list)"delight in him who is the more valiant and intelligent nature...for they love not boys but intelligent beings whose reason is beginning to be developed, much about the time at which their beards begin to grow." 3) What do we say of the drunken Alcibiades? He bursts into the party, and professes his undying love and previous sexual advances upon Socrates. Two points here: a) the sexual advance is indicated to have happened before the two were on campaign at Potiditea b) Alcibiades' monologue is met with laughter, "as he seemed to be still in love with Socrates." It appears then, that such love was at least at this point in Alcibiades' career inappropriate. The most interesting thing about the whole account is that Phaedrus may be making an appeal, just as Cohen is, to the glorious past of Greece, in order to justify his claim about lovers in the army! It is one that neither Pausanius, nor the rest of the company wholeheartedly advocate. As to the comments regarding the indiscriminate mixing of history and philosophy, even non-Hegelians occasionally ask if either of the two can ever be adequately understood in a vacuum. "... it is now important to integrate the results of these researches, conducted in a very different spirit from that of the nineteenth century, and thus to arrive at a more exact knowledge of man." Mircea Eliade. On a more practical note, as a former military officer, it behooves me to mention that whatever the results of allowing Gays in the military, the process of their integration will be extremely difficult, and potentially explosive. No appeal to precedents of this nature are in the least way convincing to the average military person.

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1993
From: Joe Cotter
Subject: Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT

There is a problem with having Plato refer in the Symposium to the Theban Sacred Band (which features prominently in Cohen's provocative effort at "haute vulgarisation"). Leutra battle in 371 should be 15 or so years after Plato wrote Symposium. Both Xenophon and Plato assume that Pausanias gave a speech ca. 420 BC in which an audience of Greeks was expected to have no trouble (pace Tony Keen) with the proposition that pairs of lovers (the "Theban Band" seems to have excluded non-gays like Xenophon as not tough enough!:-))could prove effective in organizing military forces. There is a danger of making the admittedly predominant "older male/pubescent boy" stereotype a rigorous law. Pausanias and Agathon were, of course, lovers for decades--there goes another easy stereotype. The reception of Heracles myths in Thebes may give evidence that the notion of brave homosexual pairs of fighters goes back to the 6th century at least.

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1993 16:05:00 EST
From: ?
Subject: Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT

On the sacred band and homosexuality cf. James G. DeVoto, "The Theban Sacred Band," The Ancient World XXIII.2 (1992) 3-19

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1993
From: Robin Mitchell
There are some accounts, in Demosthenes, I believe, of adult, equal relationships. Charles Hedrick, do you remember the accounts John Lynch dug up about this last summer?

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1993
From: Tony Keen
Subject: Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT

As the foundations of my position crumble away beneath me... Well, I suppose I should have expected that as soon as I made my blanket statement about adult male/male sexual relationships not taking place, people would provide evidence that they did (hell, I'm a political historian, not a social one...). So, I accept that there were such relationships, but I would still deny that they were the norm in the same way that pederastic relationships were the norm. Also, I would like to draw a very firm line (which I'm not sure everyone else has) between physically-consummated relationships and very close `platonic' (for want of a better word) relationships, which is what the pederastic relationship usually develops into.

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1993
From: James Hagy
Subject: Re: Cohen on Gays in the NYT

If the Greeks had banned homosexuals they would have lost the Persian Wars.
Culled from classics.log9303 and classics.log9304
Copyright © 2001 David Meadows
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